On the afternoon of farewell to the National Energy Administration more than nine months later, Zhang Guobao, the retiring Chinese energy “big steward”, talked about China’s energy issues.

After his transfer to the post of deputy director of the Economic Committee of the National Committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference, he also served as the director of the National Energy Experts Committee. He is still very concerned about the energy issue. "This year, during the two sessions, he also wrote a proposal on 'same price for water, water, and thermal power (hydropower and thermal power)'."

In a nearly three-hour conversation with the newspaper, he was very persistent and there was almost no interruption. The only time that he interrupted was when he got up and went to the office to get some documents about UHV.

He has excellent memory and is well-versed in all kinds of energy data. He also knows the local and industry dynamics.

In this exclusive interview, Zhang Guobao completely and systematically explained his views on many energy issues, and for the first time clarified his views on UHV grid and power system reform.

He particularly clarified: The media claimed that it was a false alarm for the reformists. He said that he himself is a witness and practitioner of reforms, and he is either a reformist or a reformist, and he is "letting future generations comment."

Hydropower should also be developed, but the time for orderly protection of a river without a single power station is over.

Nowadays, there are crazy ways to launch small hydropower all over the country. This is a great ecological devastation. How do you see this phenomenon?

Zhang Guobao: In fact, I oppose chaos on all parts of the country. First of all, SHP has institutional problems. As the name implies, energy and electricity should be managed by the Energy Bureau or the National Development and Reform Commission, but SHP is now under the control of the Ministry of Water Resources. According to some opinions, hydropower has once been a major controversy in power system reforms. There are still many hydropower counties that are under the jurisdiction of the water control department.

Second, I also have opinions on the technology of SHP. Drainage-type power generation technology is now widely used. It diverts natural rivers through tunnels or tunnels to the downstream, forming a high head, generating electricity downstream, causing the original river to dry up, affecting normal ecological water use and landscapes.

What do you think about whether you want to build a hydropower station in Nujiang?

Zhang Guobao: Some people advocate the development, but some people, especially some non-government environmental protection organizations, say that the Nu River is an ecological river. There is not yet a hydropower station. Should it keep its “original ecology”? However, the local government believes that it should still be built.

In fact, the Nu River is not completely without hydropower stations. There are already hydropower stations in the downstream part of the country. There are also small hydropower stations in the upstream and in the tributaries.

The Energy Development Bureau of the National Development and Reform Commission once organized a team to visit the Nu River. Some people in the group strongly advocated the development after they came back. He said that people who did not allow development were idealists because the actual situation was that the slope vegetation below the altitude of 1,500 meters in the Nu River had It has been destroyed and there is no original ecology. In many places, because the local residents want to survive, there are many “characters reporting fields”. (Reporter's Note: Farmlands planted on hillsides, like big posters posted on mountain beams, are called For "character reporting field"). The damage to the ecology is equally serious. People who advocate the construction of hydropower and those who oppose hydropower have had very fierce debates. Environmentalists say you don't want to do it. Local people ask us why it is so poor. What do we rely on to earn income? Environmentalists say that you can travel. However, local comrades do not recognize the idea that tourism can become rich.

Personally, I think that the era of completely protecting a river without a power station has passed, not to mention the fact that hydropower stations have actually existed in the lower reaches of the Nu River. However, I advocate an orderly development. Instead of doing a large-scale hydropower development project of “one library and eight levels” as before, it is necessary to build a hydroelectric power station in this area of ​​Liuku, which can also solve the problem of water use in Nujiang Prefecture. Try to build a try to see how the situation? There are a lot of people hold this idea. But this requires scientific argumentation and coordination of various opinions.

Since so much has been built, will there be no need for many large-scale water conservancy projects during the "12th Five-Year Plan" period?

Zhang Guobao: We still have to, in order to complete the proportion of non-fossil energy, hydropower should bear the most important share, otherwise how can we achieve the international commitment of non-fossil energy to 15% of primary energy consumption by 2020? Currently, China’s The level of water resources development is only 24%, far below the level of the developed countries such as the United States and Japan. The level of development in the United States is 82%, and the level of development in Japan is 84%.

Recently, the policy level has attached great importance to unconventional oil and gas. How can we judge this situation?

Zhang Guobao: I think we should speed up the development of unconventional oil and gas, and development is not enough. When I was in office, I always called for development. In the 90s of the last century, when I was the deputy director of the State Planning Commission, Ye Qing, I went to the United States to inspect. At that time, the coal-bed methane in the United States had already reached 60 billion cubic meters, and our country was zero.

In China, gas was the first killer, but in other countries it was used as a resource. After returning, we pushed for coalbed methane, and set up a company called the China Coalbed Methane Company. This company has two shareholders. One PetroChina and one Chinese coal company did not do much, although they did a lot of work.

Later, the shale gas Americans came out and we knew it was too late. In my term of office, I had already agreed to pilot the cooperation with the United States in Sichuan, but now it has just begun, and it may take a decade of hard work to get some scale.

The energy development gap mainly depends on nuclear power in China's nuclear power supervision. The division of labor in various departments has unclear problems.

After the Fukushima nuclear incident in Japan, Germany announced that it will shut down all nuclear power plants by 2022. For a time, the discussion on the necessity of the development of nuclear power once again warmed up. How do you see Germany's decision?

Zhang Guobao: Germany has a green party. The Green Party has stronger strength and its anti-nuclear will is stronger. Therefore, for the coalition to be in power, the incumbent must have the votes of the Green Party. In the end, Merkel's government announced that it would give up all nuclear power in 2022. However, a considerable part of Germany’s electricity is bought from France, and France is a nuclear power. There are nuclear power plants on the German-French border.

The United States has recently introduced a strategy for energy development. This strategy not only fails to say that nuclear power is not used, but also indicates that it must occupy a leading position in the world.

I think nuclear power is an important achievement in the history of human science and technology development. A few days ago, the global population reached 7 billion people. With the continuous growth of the population, there is a growing shortage of fossil fuels. What can the energy gap make up for? By relying on wind and solar energy to make up for it? I don’t think we can make it up. To rely on nuclear power, if there is no nuclear power, rely on what energy to feed so many people? Therefore, nuclear power is to ensure that non-fossil energy supply is an important aspect of mankind's future fossil fuels gradually depleted.

Some people worry that China's nuclear power is developing too fast. Can talents and infrastructures keep up?

Zhang Guobao: In fact, China's development of nuclear power is very cautious. It pays great attention to safety and adopts the latest technology. Therefore, compared with neighboring countries and developed countries, China’s nuclear power is relatively slow. In 1964, our country exploded an atomic bomb and established a relatively complete nuclear industry system. On December 26, 1970, the nuclear submarine got water. On February 8, 1970, the construction of a nuclear power plant began, but it was not until 1991 that Qinshan Nuclear Power Unit 1 passed acceptance and it took 21 years. At the time, South Korea had no nuclear industry, but now South Korea operates 21 nuclear power plants and China has only 13 of them. South Korea exports millions of kilowatts of nuclear power units to the United Arab Emirates and has independently developed a 1.4 million-kilowatt nuclear power unit. South Korea’s population and area are only equivalent. A province in China. At present, there are 54 reactors in Japan and 4 reactors in Taiwan. Therefore, compared with the surrounding countries, nuclear power in China does not grow faster than India, but it is slow to develop.

Why is it slow? It is not that China’s nuclear technology is less skilled than South Korea, nor is it that our foundation is behind that of South Korea, but that our will to develop nuclear power is not strong enough and there are too many arguments. On the contrary, our determination to develop nuclear submarines is firm and unified. In 1970, our country’s first nuclear submarine was launched.

How did we resolve the dispute over whether to develop nuclear power and why did it break out during the 11th Five-Year Plan period?

Zhang Guobao: As the energy supply situation becomes more and more tense, and in order to ensure that there is a complete nuclear industry and technical team, everyone's understanding of the development of nuclear power is gradually unanimous. It is still necessary to vigorously develop nuclear power. However, it also experienced a period of repeated efforts to develop vigorously and develop moderately for a while. There is a different interpretation of what is appropriate and different people.

The above recurrence may be more concerned with safety supervision. Under the current regulatory system, how do the various functional departments divide?

Zhang Guobao: When setting up the National Energy Administration, one of the important contents was to bring this function of civil nuclear power under the jurisdiction of the former National Department of Science, Technology and Industry for National Defense, and even brought people to bring the horse. Specifically, Comrade Sun Qin, deputy director of the National Commission for Science, Technology and Industry for National Defense, transferred the deputy director of the National Energy Administration. All the personnel related to the Civilian Nuclear Power Commission were also transferred to the Energy Bureau.

In addition to being responsible for military industry nuclear industry, the Defense Industry and Technology Bureau currently manages a part of civilian nuclear power, such as uranium ore and waste processing. This function has crossed with the National Energy Administration. In addition, the National Atomic Energy Agency is based at the Ministry of National Defense.

Other areas are in ambiguous areas, such as signing nuclear safety treaties with foreign countries and peacefully using atomic energy. This is led by the National Bureau of Science, Technology and Industry, led by the National Energy Administration, or led by the Ministry of Science and Technology. There are some controversies. There is also a cross between the National Energy Administration and the National Nuclear Safety Administration.

For example, at present, the National Energy Administration is preparing the “Nuclear Power Security Development Plan” and the National Nuclear Safety Administration is preparing the “Nuclear Safety Development Plan”. The two plans actually have a crossover and have not yet come out. However, there is still the question of whether or not they are unified after the formulation of the table.

In addition, after the institutional reform, a function of the former National Defense Commission for Science and Technology, namely the training of nuclear power operators and qualification certification, was also brought to the National Energy Administration.

However, the National Nuclear Safety Administration said that this matter should be controlled by them. The result of the coordination is that the assessment is still being examined by the Energy Bureau, but the certificate is issued by the Nuclear Safety Administration.

Therefore, with respect to the supervision of nuclear power, the division of work among various departments still has problems of crossover and unclearness. After the Fukushima accident came out, I once wrote a report to the Central Government. In my report, I said that nuclear power seems to be under management in many departments. Now that there are no problems, everyone is rushing to control. After the actual problem, I do not know who is in charge. , I do not know which department is the real lead department.

The wind power is more Internet access is the power grid to reverse the practice. At the end of September I went to Jiuquan to look at the wind power and saw the deserted industrial park.

At the China Energy Forum held in July, you mentioned that after reading a wind power report from the U.S. Department of Energy, many views on wind power changed.

Zhang Guobao: Most people think that wind power is unstable, and there must be a large number of coal-fired power grids in the grid, and it is not enough to use wind power. Some people also set a certain target for it. For example, the proportion of wind power in the entire network cannot exceed 10%. %. In short, it is considered that wind power is not a good source of energy. The U.S. Department of Energy’s report has overturned these views, reporting that there is no 10% ceiling for power grid acceptance and that existing technology can solve this problem.

When Spain’s energy minister visited, he also said that their instant wind power once occupied half of the power grid. This is an extreme case, but in normal circumstances, it can probably achieve 20%-30%.

I reported the situation to the senior management. When senior officials visited Spain, they also asked about this topic. On October 16th, Mengxi Power Grid reached 86.42 million kWh of wind power and the ratio reached 24%. Therefore, the upper limit of wind power access is not our own, and the key is that the grid company has not reversed its inherent ideas.

Germany's roof development plan encourages people to have solar energy installed on the roof of their homes. Extra electricity can be sent online. Why can't we?

Some people think that during the "Eleventh Five-Year Plan" period, wind power has developed too quickly, and during the "12th Five-Year Plan" period, wind power has reached a period of strategic adjustment. What do you think?

Zhang Guobao: I don't know if the Energy Bureau has anybody to think like this. They haven't said that to me. But why does the outside world have such speculation? Maybe it only saw some phenomena. This year, the power to approve wind power has been collected, which means that it must be reported to the National Energy Administration for the record. In fact, filing has become a kind of examination and approval. The outside world will guess whether the Energy Bureau will control the rhythm of wind power.

Some time ago I met Han Junliang, chairman of Sinovel Wind Power, who built a large-scale equipment manufacturing plant in Jiuquan. I said that this year has reflected that many places have not been approved and construction has stopped. What about yours? He said that we are still producing, but in the first half of the year, there were indeed more than 20 million kilowatts reported in the country. The report to the Energy Bureau has not been issued yet (later issued Part). Therefore, some of the follow-up procedures that companies need to do, such as land and environmental assessments, have stagnated. If they do not occur, they will affect equipment manufacturing. When Tiangong No. 1 was launched, I went to Jiuquan to look at the wind power. I saw a deserted industrial park. A backlog of 2.8 million kilowatts of wind turbines was completed. It may have accumulated more than 10 billion yuan in liquidity, and the profit was 60% lower than last year. This phenomenon should be taken seriously.

How to solve the problem?

The reasons for the lack of smoothness are that they can be placed on the desktop and not on the desktop.

In this year's southern power shortage, Inner Mongolia has problems with electricity.

Zhang Guobao: When I went to the Ximeng, I really had this problem. The fans on the other side didn't turn around. The locals said that the original small substation capacity is not enough, so that the substation can generate electricity afterwards. I arrived in Hulunbeier in Mengdong, where the power stations of Yimin, Baojixile, and Ewenk all had insufficient power and issued plans for less than 4,000 hours.

The comrades from the Inner Mongolia Energy Bureau, who had come to inspect with me, introduced that this issue was particularly prominent in the winter. Because the issue of winter heating is more prominent, we must first ensure the residents heating, combined heat and power, to ensure that the heating system has to open the thermal power unit first, priority is to connect the thermal power unit to the Internet, and then there is excess space for other power generation methods, including wind power.

The deeper problem is that the connection between the Inner Mongolia Power Grid and the North China Power Grid is not smooth, and there is no way to send the electricity. The reason for the lack of smoothness is that it can be placed on the desktop and not on the desktop. The fundamental problem is still institutional issues. Inner Mongolia Power Grid is rather special. It is a power grid that belongs to the local government and does not belong to the grid company that is controlled by the State Grid Corporation of China. In terms of feelings, there are inevitably pro sons and sons.

The problem of Inner Mongolia Power Grid is so deadlocked, no solution?

Zhang Guobao: No solution. Then you say how to change? To say that there are solutions, there is only one way to transfer the Inner Mongolia Power Grid to the State Grid. Only by transferring the Inner Mongolia Power Grid to it, or holding larger shares in Inner Mongolia Power Grid, can this problem be solved.

If this is done, the outside world will certainly have another assessment, saying that the national grid has become more monopolized. But if you do not do this, you can only maintain the current deadlock.

In fact, the situation in Inner Mongolia also exists in Hebei. Because of its particularity, Hebei's internal power grid is divided into two parts: North Network and South Network. Among them, Zhangjiakou, Chengde, Qinhuangdao, Tangshan, and Langfang belong to Hebei Beibei. They and the municipality Beijing Grid and Tianjin Power Grid are unified under the jurisdiction of North China Electric Power Company. Shijiazhuang, Baoding, Xingtai, Handan, Hengshui and Ganzhou belong to Hebei South Network and are under the jurisdiction of Hebei Electric Power Company. This is a history that has not been well resolved.

Splitting the power grid does not help the regulation of the power grid. It is not possible to have several power grid companies in one area at the same time. This requires an oversight department.

Some people think that the reform of the power system is not complete. How do you see this judgment?

Zhang Guobao: The world does not have a unified power system model.

France has so far been a network, and the factory network is the same. The power generation company and the power grid company are also one company. For a French power company, the French power company is a state-owned company and has a monopoly over us.

Japan is another model, divided into nine grids, interconnected but managed independently. There is no coal in any place in Japan, so there are no cross-regional energy exchange issues like China. There is very little exchange of electricity among each other and they are basically balanced in their own regions.

No country in the world has the same power system reform, including such agencies as the Electricity Regulatory Commission. Not all countries have the Electricity Regulatory Commission. Our model is based on the British model. We visited the UK factory network separately. They have an electricity supervision committee, so we also established the Electricity Regulatory Commission. In some countries, there are no SERCs, and Japan does not, and power supervision also belongs to the energy sector.

There is a view that the power grid is too strong, so SERC will not be able to monitor its responsibilities. Is it easier to supervise the separation of large grids?

Zhang Guobao: During the reform of the power system, there was a fierce debate on one network or several networks. The final result was neither a network nor a few networks, but two grids in the south and north. Regardless of how it is divided, in a certain local area, or within the scope of a certain province, it is still a grid company. It is impossible to have several grid companies at the same time in one area, or it will face the problem of natural monopoly. This requires an oversight department. The purpose of the establishment of the SERC is to supervise, and the power grid cannot be monopolized under natural monopoly conditions. Otherwise, what is the establishment of the Electricity Regulatory Commission? The current problem is that the SERC has not played this role. Splitting the grid can not solve the natural monopoly of the grid.

One direction of power reform is the separation between the main and the auxiliary. Some people think that the national grid is lagging behind in the separation of auxiliary businesses. What do you think of this?

Zhang Guobao: This can't be blamed on the national power grid. They wish they could have dumped the burden on the auxiliary industry. But who will pick it up? State Grid has inherited the clothing of the Ministry of Electric Power. Those who don’t want others have to stay in the grid companies, including electricity. Department of the old cadres, power construction companies, maintenance companies, design institutes. National Grid is also feeling a burden. In the past, how many times did the leaders of the State Grid Corporation have visited me and said that they were hurriedly divided, but what was the problem and who had the final say?

The National Power System Reform Working Group was established in March 2002 and was led by the then State Planning Commission. The former State Economic and Trade Commission, the State Power Corporation, the Central Organization Department, the Central Enterprise Work Committee, the Central Organization Office, the Ministry of Finance, the Legislative Affairs Office, and the It was reorganized, and consisted of relevant departments and units such as Guangdong Province, and was specifically responsible for the implementation of the power system reform. The leader of the working group was headed by Ma Kai, the then director of the National Development and Reform Commission. This institution was originally established in the National Development and Reform Commission. After the establishment of the SERC in January 2003, it was handed over to the SERC. The director is still Zhang Ping and the executive agency is in the SERC. Actually, the SERC needs to negotiate with the SASAC, the National Development and Reform Commission, and the Energy Administration.

After many times of running through multiple departments, the country has already determined the main and auxiliary separation plan at the end of September. According to this plan, power survey and design, hydrothermal power construction and power repair companies are separated from power grid companies, and 14 provinces (autonomous regions and municipalities) subsidiary companies such as Hebei, Jilin and Shanghai restructured with China Water Conservancy and Hydropower Construction Group Corporation and China Hydropower Consultancy Group Corporation. For the Power Construction Group Co., Ltd., Beijing, Tianjin, Shanxi and other 15 provinces (autonomous regions, municipalities) subsidiary companies and China Gezhouba Group, China Electric Power Advisory Group Corporation was restructured into China Energy Construction Group.

Since the grid split cannot solve the problem, will it be effective to restore bids to the Internet?

Zhang Guobao: The Internet has not been tried, but it has all ended in failure. Because there is still a shortage of electricity in many places.

Zhejiang also competed. In 1998, I also brought people to inspect it. It was during the Asian financial crisis, when the economy was the weakest, Zhejiang's electricity also had a little surplus. It took the lead in nationwide bidding. After the power shortage, Zhejiang took the lead to cancel the bidding. Now Zhejiang has not bid for many years.

Later, Song Mi, the first Vice Chairman of the SERC, also tried to pilot the Internet price in Northeast China. As a result, the power companies and local governments had opinions and they had to stop.

Why is this? Because this kind of bidding is not a formal auction, there must be a premise for bidding, that is, electricity is relatively abundant. However, China’s electricity itself is in a state of inadequacy, and how does the supply exceed demand? Like this year’s big electricity shortage, how do we bid?

Last year, State Grid bought XJ Electric why you did not sign it?

Zhang Guobao: I once told the State Grid Corporation of my reasons. Why do you have to buy XJ Electric and Hegao Electric? After you close it, even if you have a bowl of water, other companies think that you are not flat, and you think that the reform will go back. Later, the State Grid Corporation of China sought approval from the SASAC. This also illustrates the multi-dragon control of power management from a side.

At present, there are still problems with our management system. For example, such purchases are not approved by the National Energy Administration, but approved by the SASAC. Should the SASAC not consult the Energy Bureau?

I am in favor of UHV. I think this is a technological advancement that can solve the energy demand under the uneven energy distribution pattern.

There are many arguments for the development of UHV power grids. What do you think about these arguments?

Zhang Guobao: I am in favor of developing UHV. I think this is a kind of technological progress. It can better satisfy people's demand for energy under the uneven energy distribution pattern in China.

Why do we need to develop? In 2010, China’s installed power generation capacity reached 962 million kilowatts, which was 16.84 times that of 1978. The installed capacity has leapt to 21st place in the world and ranked second in the world; the electricity consumption of the entire society has reached 4.19 trillion kilowatts. At the same time, it increased by 16.78 times over 1978; the length of transmission lines above 220 kV reached 443,000 kilometers, an increase of 19.1 times, and the transformed capacity was 2.08 billion kVA, an increase of 81.6 times. The electric power industry has undergone tremendous changes both quantitatively and qualitatively. What is the quantity change to a qualitative change? With such a large change, your technology will not change, the quantity of electricity will increase indefinitely. Can this be the case? Electricity will increase so much, will the power system not change?

With the rapid expansion of power grids and increasing voltage levels, the stability and destruction of power grids has been decreasing. In the 1970s, the stability and damage accidents of the power grid in the 1970s averaged 9 times per year, from 1981 to 1987 to 6.7 times per year, and from 1987 to 1997 to 2 times per year. Since 1997, the main network has not experienced stable damage accidents. Large-scale blackouts occurred in North America, Europe, Japan, and Brazil. China's power grid technology has reached the international advanced level.

According to my understanding, more than 400 of the NPC deputies and CPPCC members mentioned the proposal to develop UHV.

Externally UHV transmission lines, especially whether it is necessary to link UHV AC transmission lines in North China, Central China, and East China into “Sanhua” (ie North China, Central China, East China) synchronous grids, there are mainly two Opinions: First, the construction of UHV synchronous power grids, especially the "Three Chinas" synchronous power grid, is worried that the scale of the synchronous power grid is too large, serious faults in the system will be triggered across the network, and there will be potential safety hazards resulting in large-scale power outages; secondly, since the UHV power grid exchanges Transmission is controversial. Whether cross-regional transmission can only develop UHV DC transmission, but these discussions are mostly limited to sentimental views, and there is insufficient scientific demonstration.

Regarding the above objections, the National Energy Experts Advisory Committee conducted a scientific demonstration to the Electric Power Research Institute. The Electric Power Research Institute has constructed three programs. One is the 500-kilovolt scheme, which maintains the existing 500-kilovolt voltage grid, and the major regions are connected by DC transmission lines. The second is the “Three Chinas” UHV asynchronous scheme, which means that North China and Central China are connected by 1000 kV AC to form a synchronous power grid; and East China Power Grid and Central China Power Grid are connected by DC, which is an asynchronous regional power grid. The third type is the “Three Chinas” UHV synchronization scheme, which uses 1,000 kV UHV AC to link the three regional grids of North China, Central China, and East China into the “Three China” synchronous grid.

Through computer simulation and calculation, compared with the former two schemes, the third scheme reduces the DC feed, the AC-DC coordinated development, and the ability to withstand serious accidents. This computer simulation calculation also won the first prize for scientific and technological progress. No one can find out that this kind of computer simulation calculation is not scientific. Do not agree with the "Sanhua" grid did not come up with a calculation basis, but based on their own feelings that are not safe.

With the increasing installed capacity of electric power in China, and China's resource endowment will inevitably require cross-regional transmission, the “Three China” UHV power grid is not a problem of choice between superior and inferior, but an inevitable choice for the development of power grids, otherwise it cannot meet the grid Stability requirements.

With regard to the development of UHV, the documents for the development of major equipment issued by the State Council’s long-term planning for science and technology, the “Twelfth Five-Year Plan” and the State Council have clearly stated. If you say experts' opinions, academicians of the two academies, such as Yan Luguang of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, Lu Qiang of Tsinghua University, and Academician Zhou Xiaoxin of the Institute of Electrical Engineering all agree, and academicians without power systems do not agree.

In addition to safety issues, people also questioned the economics of UHV power grids and believed that the cost of long-distance power transmission may be higher than the cost of coal transportation.

Zhang Guobao: Transmission and transmission of coal are long-distance transport methods for energy. They must be adapted to local conditions, supplement each other, and complement each other. There is no mutual exclusion issue. Shi Dazhao, the old leader of the Ministry of Electric Power, said that the far transmission of coal and near transmission were proposed by the Ministry of Electric Power in the 1960s. At that time, the power grids of all the major regions were not linked, coal was cheap, and transportation was not as tense as now. It was also low, and the transmission line was only 220 kilovolts at the time and was not suitable for long distance transmission. However, coal prices and freight rates have now been greatly improved, and transmission technology has also made great progress. 500 kilovolts AC and DC and even ±800 kilovolts of DC and 1,000 kilovolts of AC have been used, making it possible to transmit electricity over long distances. Sexuality is also improving, so the view of coal transmission and near transmission is not static.

In the eastern and central regions, coal shortages and power shortages will persist for a long time. Cross-regional power transmission must be put on the agenda. At present, the price per ton of coal in East China has exceeded 1,000 yuan. Through the economical comparison of the transmission and transmission of electricity in the entire process, the coal in the western region will generate electricity locally. The UHV is transported to the eastern and central China consumer end, and the electricity price can be lower than the local average on-grid tariff.

At the same time, the development of UHV transmission technologies and cross-regional adjustments can eliminate poorly-stabilized clean energy sources such as hydropower, wind power, and solar energy.

If UHV power grids are to be constructed, can China be autonomous in terms of technology and how effective are the projects already completed?

Zhang Guobao: Technology has been developed. There are only a handful of Uighurs that China has independently researched and developed without relying on other people's technologies. The former Soviet Union had developed a 1,140 kilovolt project, but it was abolished due to political disintegration and economic decline. At the time, their technology appeared to be very old. The switches were all mechanical switches. Now the switches are sulphur hexafluoride switches. Our UHV technology has been absorbed by the International Power Coalition as an international standard. Brazil and even Russia and the United States have begun negotiations with China to build UHV transmission lines.

At present, only China has built a ±800 kV DC line in the world. One is Yunguang DC (from Chuzhou City in the west, to Guangzhou City in Guangdong Province in the east), one is upward DC (since Xiangjiaba in the west, and Fengxian in Shanghai in the east), all of which are operating very well. Before the World Expo, I took the Brazilian Minister of Energy to see the DC project. He originally did not believe that China had this technology and he changed his views after the visit. In the past, Brazil wanted to use ±600 kV. After he returned, Brazil was also preparing to build ±800 kV DC from the Meishan Hydropower Station to Rio de Janeiro.

There are also two UHV AC projects. One is the 1,000 kV AC UHV pilot demonstration project in southeastern Shanxi and Jingmen. The other is the one approved by the National Development and Reform Commission. The other is the 1,000 kV Huainan-Shanghai UHV AC transmission demonstration project.

The current capacity of the first line is 2.4 million kilowatts. Therefore, opposing the UHV seizes this point: The 1000-kilovolt exchange should send 5 million kilowatts, and how should it send 2.4 million kilowatts?

In fact, the Development and Reform Commission approved the document only for the first phase of the project. The document expressly transmits about 2.5 million kilowatts, mainly to test whether there are any problems with the equipment. Only half of the transformers have been installed. After the first phase, there is no problem until the second phase of the transformer. It can be completed in November this year and has the capacity to send 5 million kilowatts.

The total energy consumption control is a difficult problem to try to break down into various provinces, and it will face a problem. What if local breakthroughs are made?

At present, how is the widely controversial total energy consumption control put forward?

Zhang Guobao: Last year when formulating the "Proposal for the Twelfth Five-Year Plan for the Formulation of National Economic and Social Development of the CPC Central Committee", I was a member of the drafting group. In the course of the discussion, I proposed whether or not there should be an indicator to "ten. At the end of the second five-year period, how much energy do we produce and how much does it consume?

However, we did not discuss the results. Why we cannot conclude? The reason is very simple. By the end of the "Eleventh Five-Year Plan" period, China's total primary energy consumption has reached 3.25 billion tons, an increase of 800 million tons during the "Eleventh Five-Year Plan" period. If the "12th Five-Year Plan" increases year on year, it will reach 4 billion tons. But now our coal production already accounts for 46% of the world's total, plus 800 million tons, and half of the world's coal is in China. In this way, the pressure of reducing emissions in China is even greater.

This proposed a "threshold" for energy consumption. However, the actual economic development and people’s demand for energy consumption are difficult to control because of only one indicator. Therefore, it is difficult to determine a total energy consumption in the "12th Five-Year Plan".

Later, many other incidents occurred, such as the Fukushima nuclear power plant crisis, the chaos in the Middle East and North Africa, and the shortage of electricity in the South. Energy problems further highlighted. The "energy control indicator" was put forward again. However, the specific amount is 3.8 billion yuan or 4 billion yuan, pending further discussion.

Set total goals to achieve policy expectations?

Zhang Guobao: Regardless of how much the target is finalized, how to control it is difficult. If you can't control it, it's just a number. Is this number oriented or restrictive?

In fact, during the “Eleventh Five-Year Plan” period, we also proposed a total control target, but the result was that the “ceiling” of the total amount broke through earlier and did not control. Now that we are trying to decompose into various provinces, we will also face a problem. If local breakthroughs are made, even if this goal is set as a binding indicator, what means is it? It is worth studying.

Many experts say that instead of controlling energy consumption, it is better to implement resource tax reforms. It is more effective to control the growth of energy consumption by increasing the price of resources as an economic means.

Zhang Guobao: Resources tax can not be completed to achieve the purpose of controlling consumption. The first effect of the reform of the resource tax is to increase the tax revenue in resource-producing provinces, and the second to increase energy prices. After the increase in energy prices, can we push the price out? If we do not let it go, there will be coal and electricity contradictions. If you go out and pass it back to the price, how can the problem of inflation be controlled?

Reform or reform? There are still many things to be done after the opinions of future generations, including micro and macro levels.

During your tenure in the Energy Bureau, what did you want to do but did not do?

Zhang Guobao: When I left office, I said that we are only a short period in the long history of humanity. There are still many things to be done later. Including the microscopic and macroscopic aspects, such as the microscopic point of view, the new energy plan was formulated when I was in office, but without approval, it needs to be improved. The more macro aspect is the reform of the energy system and energy pricing mechanism.

At that time, the first expectation of many people for the Energy Bureau was to carry out energy price and structural reforms.

Zhang Guobao: I have said many times that the responsibility for energy prices is not in the energy bureau, but in the price department, and in the reform of the system, in the Development and Reform Commission of the Development and Reform Commission. The Energy Bureau only gives opinions on prices and institutions. It is not a decision agency. The price must be changed and the resistance will be great.

For example, the original hydropower price in a certain place was a gross domestic product, which was far below the thermal power price. However, the local price bureau said that it is not possible to use the same price for water and fire, saying that it will boost local prices.

In fact, these are all superficial reasons. How to balance the interests of power generation companies and power grid companies and how to represent the value of clean energy? These need our deep thinking.

Externally speaking, you have two opinions. One is improvement. The other is reform. Do you feel that you are improving or reforming?

Zhang Guobao: Let it be judged by future generations. Reform is not something that I can change at this level. I would like to say that the word "improvement" originated from a media report. I said that I was a reformist at the Energy Work Conference. I did not say anything like this. There were so many people present at the Energy Work Conference and there were also recordings. Under the tide of reform and opening up, I am a practitioner and a witness of reform. Under the leadership of the State Council leadership and the National Development and Reform Commission, I was the drafter of the three reforms of civil aviation, communications, and power.

To do things in one department, the leadership still needs to have some reform spirit.

Zhang Guobao: I agree with your point of view. Especially in the case of divisions of various government departments, reforms need to be somewhat spiritual and courageous.

I worked hard to do it. For example, when the pressure was on the big, the state asked me to press 50 million kilowatts. I have pressed 76 million kilowatts. There are also rural network transformations. The last issue was before I left office. Originally, I was about to step down and the appointment was announced late that day. So I went to report on the second phase of the transformation of the rural network. The State Council approved the reorganization of rural power grids again. I was pleased to do this.